politics & the office--just don't mix

[novapsyche]

So my boss is talking to our receptionist (who happens to be male) and strains of their conversation is wafting through the department. I hear:

"And he says that he believes that life begins at conception. Well, biologically, what else happens then?"

I say fairly audibly, "Now, see, that's something I think shouldn't be discussed in the office." But my boss's office is some cubes down, so he almost certainly didn't hear me (though my officemates did).

The receptionist: "Right."

My boss: "Now, he says life begins at conception, but he's for abortion."

I speak up quite loudly: "No, he's not 'for abortion,' he's for the right to choose. They're not necessarily the same thing."

Still don't think my boss heard me, though the rest of his conversation was difficult to discern.

It's difficult for me, as a woman who has had an abortion, to discuss it in the clinically dead tones one is supposed to when talking politics.

When I heard that Kerry said that he believed life began at conception, I was more than a little disappointed. But he regained his position in my sight when he said that he didn't believe in legislating his personal beliefs onto everyone else. That I can respect. That, to me, is the morally superior position.

Of course, as a woman and a feminist, I don't think men should have such power over such issues in the first place. I don't like being sexist, but this is one area where I cannot help but be.

Also, I'd like to add that I'm tired of abortions being women's dirty little secret. Several million women get abortions every year. Yet it's so rare to hear the procedure discussed among everyday people. I remember getting acquainted with my brother's fiance, and her relating to me her two abortions. We were not in earshot of anyone, but still she whispered the information to me.

The procedure is legal. It amazes me how stigmatized the women who get abortions are. I don't think rapists are so stigmatized (at least not date rapists).

Edit: This topic has been taken up in this thread in philosophy.

Comments

sorry about the bad language which follows, sometimes I can't help myself

[kali-ma.livejournal.com]

There are some lj communities where people talk about it, such as the imnotsorry community (not sure of the exact spelling.)
It's very frustrating. I too, have had an abortion. It was so long ago - 12 years? - I barely think about it except when the stupid debate comes up. I mean, these people actually think I am a murderer! They see no difference between me doing something to save myself a lot of grief and misery from me randomly walking up to some kid I don't know on the street and beating him or her to death! If I were to tell them I had an abortion, it might make them think - but then again, it might just make them treat me really badly every time they run into me and spread rumors about me.
Then it turns into a no-win situation too. People say abortion hurts all women who have one, if I tell them I had one and it didn't hurt me, they will say "If it didn't hurt you why are you bringing it up now?" Or just fail to beieve me. Or blame my mental problems on the abortion I had when in fact, my problems long pre-dated getting pregnant in the first place.
I get so goddamn fucking sick of the whole image people have of women who have abortions. Oh, we are supposed to be victims, or pathetic, or selfish and uncaring, or sluts, or all of the above. Forget that I was using birth control and it failed, I was careless. Forget that I was in a long term monogamous relationship, I was a slut. Forget that I was broke and had no family other than the father who didn't want the kid, I was selfish to not sacrifice my life to have it. None of this matters to these morons, I'm just a heartless slut murderer to them. Well, they can just fuck off.
Women who have had abortions are probably in your family, no matter what religion your family is. Women who have had abortions are standing next to you on the subway, they work with you, they walk by you on the street. They look like anyone else. They aren't all wearing ripped stockings and overly short miniskirts and they aren't all 14 and they don't all live on the bad side of town. They go to church or temple or circle or perhaps they don't. They had a problem, they fixed it. They may regret it or they may just be relieved.
You know, the real problem people have is that WOMEN HAVE SEX (gasp shock horror), and legal abortion allows women to HAVE SEX AND NOT SUFFER CONSEQUENCES ANY MORE SERIOUS THAN WHAT MEN SUFFER. Talk to any anti-abortion person long enough and this nasty little truth comes out. You can't go to any abortion group, no matter how much they claim "we just love the babies!" before you start hearing about those sluts, murdering sluts, uneducated sluts, irresponsible sluts. And you hear VERY occasionally a token nod to the fact that men's dicks helped make those precious little "babies", and then back to more talk about the selfish irresponsible uneducated murdering sluts. Funny how the same people are usually also for welfare "reform" which leaves single mothers in a desperate situation.

Re: sorry about the bad language which follows, sometimes I can't help myself

[novapsyche.livejournal.com]

Ah, yes, the whore/Madonna complex. It's that complex that generally leads to rape. Sluts are lesser than women; women must be "good girls". Women who have forgone the virtuous life, particularly sexually, have rescinded the societal protection that women are otherwise generally afforded.

Re: sorry about the bad language which follows, sometimes I can't help myself

[guttaperk.livejournal.com]

Some of the nicest people I know are sluts, or have been. People who rejected the social games we construct around sex and romance from an early age, only to have their behavior viciously stigmatised.

Casual sex certainly is not without its problems, but I prefer it to puritanical outrage any day of the week.

[prema.livejournal.com]

I don't think that it would be right to cut out men from having power in the issue. I am pro-choice but anti-abortion, and i believe one of the biggest hurdles in both camps is that having a baby is regarded as a mistake. It starts from having sex - and here's where i get prudish - why have sex if you're not ready to deal with consequences.

If a heterosexual couple have sex, and the woman gets pregnant - the first thing that they need to realise is that while it is the woman's body - it is also a result of the man's sperm as it is the egg. This makes it as much his responsibility as hers - and he is expected to have and show consideration that it is her body who is nourishing the fetus. Obviously most men don't do this, which is why alot of feminists want them cut out of the decision loop for an abortion. I think it is ethically wrong to remove the father from the decision.
Secondly, the woman should not be legally prevented from choosing to have an abortion. She should also not be prevented by the father if she chooses to, but he should be aware of her decision (because if it hadnt been for him, she wouldnt need to make that decision). And if she does choose to have the abortion - she should not fool herself into thinking that it was just a procedure for her convenience. I hate that we trivialise the fact that conception took place just to win a woman's right to choose. This is not even about moral obligations but simply that the fetus needs to be recognised as a central subject to the entire decision. The right to choose should have strong reasoning for it, but to me - the lines that we use today - "that it is the woman's body", or "it's not even alive" or "it's just a fetus" is ridiculous.

I don't have any good reasons - but having been placed in a situation where I had to make that choice, I know that it (the choice) needs to be available. The reasons behind it still needs to be worked on - they're far too weak. This is why the anti-choice camp will continue to be vocal and aggressive towards abortion.

[guttaperk.livejournal.com]

Unwanted, unwed pregnancy is excessively stigmatised, and abortion even more so, but in my view rape is rightly stigmatised to even a greater degree.

Even the refuted accusation of rape carries a terrible stigma.

[novapsyche.livejournal.com]

I should have qualified my statement: when I say "power", I mean legislative power. I agree with you on most of your statements. During my decision, my mate was there and was supportive and let me come to the ultimate decision. I definitely tried to take his concerns into account. But the feminist in me says that as it's ultimately my body that will be put into the most difficult situation (pregnancy and birth), the decision to carry the pregnancy to term should be mine.

There is a contingent of men--how large, I could not tell you--that wants a man to have veto power over the woman's right to choose. I cannot and will not agree to that and will fight that as strongly as I possibly can. That would effectively strip the woman of all personal power and choice and would relegate her back under the thumb of her current mate.

why have sex if you're not ready to deal with consequences.

Because it feels good. Forgive me for being so flippant, but seriously, this is why so many teenagers are having sex. Teenagers aren't giving much thought to the idea of having a child or, if they do, the idea is very romanticized. Teenagers in most cases are too young to stand trial as an adult--why should they be stuck with being a parent at such an age?

Now, for those my age, yeah, those defenses are gone. Still, accidents happen--condoms break, etc. One of my main reasons for having my abortion--that I was too poor to adequately raise a child--is still true. So if I were to become pregnant again, how would my decision change? Why should it change? (This is mostly devil's advocate, since I made a personal promise that I would keep my next pregnancy. Still, bringing a child up in poverty is pretty much damning that child to a life of poverty.)

[prema.livejournal.com]

Because it feels good.

yes it does :)
But the thing is, I find many women who are pro-choice dismiss the consequences as accidents, unexpected events in nature. Oh it was an accident? Well no it isn't - every contraceptive product out there comes with its set of statistics to say that it is entirely possible to still have a baby despite the best laid plans. We're talking bout consensual sex here of course.

A pregnancy should never be called an accident - its just our bodies doing exactly what its supposed to do. I also feel strongly that the vast majority of decisions made to have an abortion is because of the weak social structure in place to help women raise children either as a single mother, or in circumstances they deemed as.. "wrong". Not to mention the instances where the woman is not in a steady relationship or marriage. Part of the prochoice campaign should also move to help provide for women who choose NOT to have an abortion - they're not doing that. My decision was influenced greatly by my society, my family's ultra-conservative and admittedly, my own feelings that I am not in the right "place" in my life to raise a child. It is my only regret - and while I realise that I am being selfish to want to have other things in life rather than face the responsibility of child-rearing, i also know that had I had that child - I would be in unimaginable domestic-social chaos. :-\

It's just a really really complex issue. I certainly don;t agree with all-male legislators trying to decide what we choose to do. But if it happens to be a team of all-male legislators who are sympathetic to pro-choice principles, then I don't we would be complaining either. It's just a matter of getting the right people in office rather than the right gender (this is another hot spot with me and feminism :)

[novapsyche.livejournal.com]

A pregnancy should never be called an accident - its just our bodies doing exactly what its supposed to do.

This sounds like a catch phrase. I do think some pregnancies can be termed accidents, especially if you've done all that you can to make sure that it doesn't occur.

I was an accident. Of course, my mom calls me her "surprise".

It's just a matter of getting the right people in office rather than the right gender (this is another hot spot with me and feminism :)

Don't get me wrong--I know full well that there are male feminists out there. (My Feminist Philosophy course was taught by a man, a very thoughtful man who I would definitely consider a feminist.) In general, though, men pick up feminist ideals secondhand, and there's often some resistance. In a male-dominated society, it's easier for a man to stay situated in his own realm of perception.

[guttaperk.livejournal.com]

(disclaimer)

Why were you disappointed?

[novapsyche.livejournal.com]

Because we don't know when life begins. We don't even know what life is. (The philosopher will now stop speaking.)

I read your disclaimer, and while I agree with the bulk, I must say that when the pro-choice camp says a fetus is not a person, they are (or at least I am) speaking in legal terms. And law is all about semantics. Once a fetus gains legal rights, that necessarily diminishes the rights of pregnant women. When that happens (and it already has), pregnant women will have fewer rights than other people in society--it would make pregnant women subhuman, legally.

Personally, I believe that actual life has precedence over possible life. The person who has been established in society and has familial, emotional and (yes) financial considerations should be given more of a say in what happens in a pregnancy than the nonthinking, nonbreathing dependent in her womb.

[guttaperk.livejournal.com]

Well, you've read my position. My difference with you is, in my eyes, minor and semantic. I do consider a foetus to be "actually alive"- after all, we consider sea sponges and bacteria to be alive- but agree that foetal rights should not trump maternal rights, for the reasons that you outline.

I've had cause recently to think about the way that I use words, and the ways in which other people's uses differ from mine. It is important to me to be consistent, and declaring foetuses to be non-alive would require me, to my way of thinking, to also consider plants and bacteria to be non-alive, which does not make sense to me.

On the other hand, it seeems that some people reject the idea of foetal life not so much out of a desire for logical consistency, but out of a desire for expressive symbolic clarity- the degree to which they feel the foetus is undeserving of consideration rivalling its mothers'. I maintain that I can agree with the principle without sharing all the terminology.