LJ drama: One-sided discussions

[novapsyche]

So now there are folks over at ginmar's journal insinuating that I am 1) racist and 2) misogynist.

And, of course, since I am still banned (though the ban was supposed to be for 24 hours only), I cannot respond.

Then there are the folks who claim that I came in, said some things I couldn't back up, and then split. Kind of hard to respond to things when I don't have posting access.

Comments

[rialian.livejournal.com]

===I am afraid this sort does that sort of thing, and shows the hypocricy of many supposed "rights" minded "activist".

===Of course, anyone that does not have complete devotion to their worldview is deluded and evil. (sad chuckle)

[novapsyche.livejournal.com]

I daresay that crosses the line from "activist" to "fanatic".

[rialian.livejournal.com]

===It can be a rather thin line...

===You have seen me rant about "identity-kin"? This is of the same sort of mindset/reason for behavior. They are not doing it to make the world a better place, or to understand themselves better. They are doing it because it is an identity.

===You did not feed her identity. Therefore, you are evil. Fanatics are not doing it "for deity". They are doing it for identity. Their identity can lead them into dying for a cause...but they are dying for the image.

[guttaperk.livejournal.com]

:-(

[novapsyche.livejournal.com]

It's been a fact since I was in kindergarten that I don't play nice with others. So I guess this is just a variation on that.

I certainly don't play nice with bullies.

[vaxjedi]

Hmm... after reading the thread, I'll have to revise my definition of radical feminism. I guess I'll stick to a brand of feminism that is more interested in women, rather than an self-indulgence in righteous indignation.

Apparently, 'radfem' means never having to say you're sorry.

As for the general topic, I'm not going to try to argue that prostitution and pornography don't exploit women. The fact is that they do. But I think the important point is that they don't have to. I know too many people (men and women both) for which both have actually been positive experiences and important and healthy components of their lives. Those seem to be a very small minority, yes. But I'd think that would make them important as the few examples of how both can be non-exploitive. Damaging practices need to be removed, yes. But empowering practices need to be protected and encouraged.

Of course, I'm just a man - what do I know?

Oh yes, and the posts on the thread about you 'obviously not wanting a dialogue' are pretty funny given that you've been silenced and they are still talking.

[novapsyche.livejournal.com]

I know too many people (men and women both) for which both have actually been positive experiences and important and healthy components of their lives. Those seem to be a very small minority, yes.

And, according to the vast majority of posters on that thread, because they do not conform to the idea that "porn = female degradation" model, they can be excised from the overall picture. Because this is all about generalizations, and policy can only be made from the general view of reality, you know. (I'd like to point out to them the concept of "tyranny of the majority," but as my mouth has been effectively taped closed . . . .)

Oh yes, and the posts on the thread about you 'obviously not wanting a dialogue' are pretty funny given that you've been silenced and they are still talking.

This inconvenient fact would be dismissed as "a technicality," I'm sure.

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

That is a giant steaming pile of wrongness.

You are so not either of those things.

[novapsyche.livejournal.com]

Well, I know that and you know that. So I guess it doesn't matter. Except I hate being misrepresented.

[flewellyn.livejournal.com]

Have you considered climbing down off that cross? We need the wood.

[rialian.livejournal.com]

===Probably to burn someone in effigy, If not in person...(chuckles)

[novapsyche.livejournal.com]

Never said I was a martyr. I said I was being misrepresented.

I don't like people implying that I am a racist and a misogynist when I am neither of those things.

I'd like to be able to respond to the insinuators personally, but am restricted from doing so.

I have every right to make comments about what goes on in LJ-land here in my own journal.

I have not chosen to stalk you at your personal journal.

If you would like to speak to me respectfully, continue to do so. Otherwise, take flames to novapsyche at livejournal dot com. Thanks.

[blackwinterbyrd.livejournal.com]

I'm on your side. I jumped in there for my own pov.
These particular people do not believe that it is possible at all to do sex work without damaging yourself. I read mistress matisse's blog, and she has a lot to say about sex work and how to do it without damaging yourself.
They sound so much like the new anti-choicers, that women are damaged by this choice and therefore should not be able to make it.

"prostitutes should not exist." I am told. "because they lower the bar and men don't have to be nice to them, so men are less nice to all women."

Matisse said men visit prostitutes to have sex. they pay money, and they can leave and not call for months. when they call again, she is not upset.
In the prostitute's case, she gets money. In the hook-up's case, she expects attention. regular phone calls, work of some kind put into the relationship. There is no emotional responsibility to a professional escort beyond normal politeness. I do know that in reality, most prostitution is coercion. But these radfems believe that simple politeness is so rare as to be inconsequential.

[novapsyche.livejournal.com]

What many radical feminists fail to grasp is that a prostitute (or a woman involved in pornography) is not "selling her body" (which would mean that she gives herself over to her customer/director to do with what s/he will) but that she is selling a service, which means she has the right to deny any particular act during negotiations and also retains the right to end the service at any time if things turn dangerous or objectionable. Just because money is involved does not mean that the woman has given over bodily control.

[dsgood.livejournal.com]

Sounds like time for you to stop reading ginmar's LJ.

[novapsyche.livejournal.com]

*sigh* I guess, though until today I had hoped that it wouldn't come to that.

[jackytar.livejournal.com]

And, of course, since I am still banned (though the ban was supposed to be for 24 hours only), I cannot respond.

Following up my previous comment, I would also note that it is the very apex of arrogance to assume that you have a right to be unbanned in another person's journal upon expiry of a certain period of time, even if that person has said that was their intention.

[rialian.livejournal.com]

===Ah...there is yet another one. (chuckles)

===No...but if someone has decided that they are goign to ban someoen, but continue discussion of the person...then maybe there is a thing about honor that is not quite understood here.

===Ah well...folks interested in just building an identity, rather than making things better in the world, tend to be a bit thin in terms of honor. Gets in the way of being heard and being reinforced.

[dionysus1999.livejournal.com]

And I thought "because I said so" was a lame excuse. I think there's an open position in the White House, you sound as good at spouting nonsense as Tony Snow.

[novapsyche.livejournal.com]

See my response to danaseilhan below.

It's so entirely too much of me to ask someone to keep their word. Especially after they admit to being entirely aware of what they initially stated (and finding it oh so funny).

[danaseilhan.livejournal.com]

Right, I'm sure you thought she would set her alarm this morning just for you and everything.

Sigh.

And WTF. How does this turn from your personal disagreement with someone into a round condemnation of all "rights activists" vis-à-vis rialian's initial comment? Because, y'know, rights activists. Where would we be without them? I know where I'd be--married to someone I can't stand anymore with no means of getting away and no chance of voting politicians in who'd do anything constructive for me. No thank you.

And...

[danaseilhan.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah, I can see it coming: "Oh, there's another one, huh huh huh," like I'm an object instead of a human being. There, I said it for you, you can go on to casting aspersions on my character or something.

[novapsyche.livejournal.com]

Look, it's been since, what, Saturday? She allowed others to come in and defame me, even participated in such herself, and then finds it hilarious that I expected to come back and make some responses.

Yes, how very arrogant. God knows I should just roll over and let everyone over in her journal shit on me verbally. That's what being a feminist is all about, you know, just being a doormat to other people's insults.

[iamcuriousblue.livejournal.com]

Nova –

I don't know how many of the other "sex-poz", "pro-porn", or sex worker blogs you read, but keep in mind that Ginmar and her ilk grossly misrepresent the positions those of us on the "other side" take. Particularly this claim that "sex-poz" folks totally ignore the reality of highly marginalized prostitutes, sex trafficking, etc. Those of us who are pro-legalization/decriminalization are simply saying that sex work covers a huge and diverse range of experiences and that to deal with it with a blunt one-size-fits-all abolitionism is simply uncalled for. Nor is it called for to treat every single person who's ever paid for sex or porn under any circumstances as a kind of rapist. Obviously, to some extreme radfems, it seems to be a death-sentence-come-the-revolution offense to even hold that position, but its not like the entire world needs to shut up and tow the line just because these people are blind with anger.

If you want some clarification about what the sex-poz/sex worker side is actually saying about sex work (presuming you haven't seen these blogs already), you might want to check out the following:

Bound, Not Gagged (http://deepthroated.wordpress.com/)
Jill Brenneman (http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.ListAll&friendID=160594876)
Audacia Ray (http://www.wakingvixen.com/blog/)
BPPA post on sex trafficking (http://bppa.blogspot.com/2007/08/pornography-and-sex-trafficking-is.html)

Agree or disagree, this position is not the caricature that Ginmar and the like paint of it.

[jackytar.livejournal.com]

A couple of links folks here might find interesting to read:

Confessions of a College Callgirl
(http://collegecallgirl.blogspot.com/2007/08/price.html)

The Guardian, UK - article on legal brothels in Nevada (http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,2164107,00.html)

Food for thought, if nothing else.