(no subject)

[novapsyche]

ginmar talks about a very negative experience at feministe wherein she felt she was personally threatened. She also talks at length about "pro-porn" "pornhounds" and how they benefit from the perpetuation of pornography. I step into the discussion to point to my paper. Conversation ensues.

Edit: She's now banned me temporarily, after calling me a bitch, which I find wryly amusing, considering how I write in my paper how insulting a woman that way is to reduce her to a level of an animal considered beneath her in the animal kingdom. It's language I would never use in a polite discussion, let alone to a fellow feminist. ginmar continues to be someone whose opinions I highly respect; I even advertise for her journal by word of mouth. I find it unfortunate she has turned her anger at what happened in another forum toward me when I showed no venom in any of the responses to her or others in that thread.

Comments

support

[johanna-hypatia.livejournal.com]

You've been treated really unfairly. I can never escape the profound sense of tragedy when you're trying to agree with someone, back them up, but they lash out at you and respond as if attacked. Especially when you share the same oppressed identity and are on the same side in the liberation struggle. Common sense suggests that as a former sex worker you would have a valuable perspective directly relevant to the issue. The only way I can make sense of being taken so wrongly is that's an effect the Man has on us to keep us down by dividing us from one another instead of feeling our common bond.

Hopefully you and she will reach understanding again after this and renew your solidarity. We need to support one another. I can't advise you what to do in this situation, because I'm not familiar with the background of it or anything, but if I were in your shoes I'd try to do what you're doing, maintain respect for her, hold off from bitterness, and keep open the door to reconciliation.

[guttaperk.livejournal.com]

She may have opinions that I might respect, but she has too many opinions and habits that I don't- including the demonisation of those who disagree with her, and the habit of putting words in other people's mouths in order to condemn them.

I avoid her, and I pity her.

[novapsyche.livejournal.com]

I don't avoid her, because I appreciate what she's gone through. I followed her blog when she was in Iraq. She's an amazing woman. She's tough as nails.

She's gone through a lot. I've gone through a lot. We're both feminists. She's a radical feminist and I am not. That's basically where we have our differences.

[guttaperk.livejournal.com]

Which is, of course, your right. I'm just stating my own opinions and choices.

I am generally open to discussion and have had discussion with wide ranges of people, from white supremacists to other radical feminists.

In my opinion, you do yourself a disservice by representing politics as the main difference between you and her. The bad habits that she displays (e.g. telling other people what they really think) are, for me, entirely separable from her politics. They may be an unfortunate result of her experiences, but that is no reason for me to endure proximity to her.

I met a sad, brilliant girl once who, in the aftermath of vicious assault by a man she could not accuse, left a string of broken lives in her wake, as she took her revenge on innocent man after innocent man.

I understand her actions as well; and I avoid her too. And that's not about politics either.

[dionysus1999.livejournal.com]

I'm in guttaperk's camp. I opened up the link and there were insults to men, in general, in the first paragraph.

For instance: "Very few men regard women as human beings"

What a crock of shit. And it shows the general level of discourse she's vomiting onto us. Obviously if most men don't see women as human beings, she has cart blanche to degrade us. She's a misandrist.

This person is verbally combative, and seems to have a hatred of men, far as I can tell. Its like listening to Rush Limbaugh, only the people being insulted aren't liberals, they are men.

I know that because someone is "tough as nails" is worthy following if all they spout is misandry cloaked as feminism.

Wow!

[sophia-sadek.livejournal.com]

I didn't know that there was such a thing as orthodox feminism. I guess we've all been taught a lesson.

(I also agree with Joanna.)

Re: Wow!

[novapsyche.livejournal.com]

I've been an atypical feminist for a long time.

Re: Wow!

[dionysus1999.livejournal.com]

Fundementalist feminism. They fundamentally hate men. And are not fun to talk to, either.

[blackwinterbyrd.livejournal.com]

"valued only for their ability to have an erection on cue. So much for women's fantasies."
okay i thought that was funny. Occasionally, and not pervaseively with negative economic ramifications, women objectify men. Exactly as in the example.

"Far from treating prostitutes as dirty, feminists have tried to help them. It's the sex poz ones that radfems don't like"

what, like fundies try to help me be a 'real woman' safe from all my personal choices? sounds suspicious.

"The experience of most, if not all prostituted women and children, is of men exercising control over their bodies. The man pays his money and then gets to do what he wants to their bodies. The equivalent with regards to abortion would be a man paying a woman to have an abortion."
wouldn't the equivalent be being forced to have an abortion? maybe economically forced? Does that not happen every day?

I think you're right, I think it is about bodily autonomy and neither radical fundies or fems have the authority to say what a woman should do with herself.

the client doesn't "do what he wants" he didn't buy you if this is your choice, he bought a service. I pay people to do my nails, play in my hair and massage tension from my nekkid body. I'm aware that this is personal service and it has boundaries. The bottom line is I'm paying someone (almost always female, incedentally)to touch me and I like it. Pay the money get abuse privelegs is the hallmark of slavery. prostitution is not always sexual slavery, despite how prevalent sexual slavery is. *shudder* I don't know if the sex pos people are disregarding horrible experiences or not. But instead of condemming all sex work, it would be more helpful to focus on how it could be a good thing instead of rabidly trying to ban it like non-marital sex.
I'm sorry you got banned for being rational.