(no subject)

[novapsyche]

There's a really interesting discussion about prostitution and pornography over in feminist. I haven't added to the conversation yet, but I probably will.

Comments

[novapsyche.livejournal.com]

They complain about lower-cut outfits being correlated with better tips for waitresses. Well, sex sells. Duh! It's been that way since the dawn of time.

So that makes the inherent sexism okay?

They complain that porn is male-centric blahblahblah. Well, if there's really a market out there for woman-centric porn, why not MAKE some and prove the point?

I agree with you to a point. However, as a consumer and not a producer of porn, I should be able to complain that I can't find the products that I want, and manufacturers should respond.

They complain that men are getting rich from the actions of women, examples cited being porn store owners, pimps, strip club owners, etc. Well, either the men are intrinsically better at business skills (a thesis I don't support), or the women are again not tapping into the market.

Ah, but you're ignoring the history and the reality of the sex trade. If you're a streetwalker, you do need protection, because the simple truth of things is that men can physically overpower women. What's the solution? Either you have an extensive network where each client is checked out beforehand and has an understanding of ground rules (call girl/madam prostitution) or you have the pimp system. This is the problem with illegal prostitution in this country. Legalization and/or decriminalization would go a long way to defuse a lot of this. The people doing most of the grunt work (pun intended) should be getting the lion's share of the pay, and that's just not the way it is.

That whole thread sounded like a lot of sour grapes, a lot of "why isn't this more the way *I* want it to be?"

It is a discussion in a feminist community. So you're hearing from feminists who have their own opinions about things.

[simianpower.livejournal.com]

They complain about lower-cut outfits being correlated with better tips for waitresses. Well, sex sells. Duh! It's been that way since the dawn of time.

So that makes the inherent sexism okay?

It makes it human. Women do the same thing. I've fairly often seen groups of women choose which bartender to go to or which waiter's section to sit in based on how he looked. Some things, whether they're fair or not, simply are, and the fact that appearance affects attraction and thus business opportunities is one of those things. If I were behind the same bar as Cindy Crawford, who do you think would get more tips? How about if I were behind the same bar as the butt-nastiest bucktoothed trailer-trash ever rejected by the Jerry Springer Show? People tend to gravitate toward things that are attractive. That's what "attractive" MEANS!

In quite a few jobs, blatant sexism is not only allowed, but expected. For example, I couldn't try out for a Revlon modeling job. The very job DESCRIPTION requires that applicants be not only female, but also pretty. Is that sexist? No, it's what they're hiring. Do people (male and female) use their sexuality to get ahead in careers other than those explicitly requiring it? Of course. It's the way of the world, and complaining about it won't do anything but cause bad feelings all around.

However, as a consumer and not a producer of porn, I should be able to complain that I can't find the products that I want, and manufacturers should respond.

I'm absolutely certain that if the manufacturers got enough complaints/demands, they WOULD respond. They're in it for the money! But the point I was making is that many or even most of the women who complain about the lack of woman-centric porn complain to one another, but don't DO anything. They don't generally complain to manufacturers, they don't make their own and sell it, they just complain to each other about the male bastards running things. And now, far more than in the past, women ARE the ones producing porn. Former porn stars getting behind the camera as directors/producers/writers than ever before. Female photographers and layout artists for magazines, etc. They know both the business and their audience. If they discovered that there's a huge new market fit for the taking, they won't turn their noses up at that market just because it's composed of women. The argument being made is that men are making porn for men, but the fact is that it's men buying! Women are also making porn, but they're ALSO making it for men (primarily) because women tend to not be nearly as large a purchasing force in that industry. If all the women who complain about porn would write to the women MAKING the porn, odds are that those women would respond with porn FOR women.

Re: your point about streetwalkers, I agree. But that's only a small segment of the sex trade, and the thread in question denounced strip club owners in the same sentence as pimps, where the situations are drastically different.

It is a discussion in a feminist community. So you're hearing from feminists who have their own opinions about things.

By posting it to your journal, you drew attention to it and implicitly were asking for comments. My take is that many of the women on that thread were complaining either to the wrong people or about the wrong things or both. There definitely were comments I agreed with, but many of them I didn't.

[novapsyche.livejournal.com]

By posting it to your journal, you drew attention to it and implicitly were asking for comments.

Sure, absolutely. I love discussing porn and prostitution. Whether that discussion happens here or in other fora, that's fine with me. And I appreciate all points of view. If people disagree with me, I don't mind; in fact, I like exploring other perspectives.

So that makes the inherent sexism okay?

It makes it human. [...] In quite a few jobs, blatant sexism is not only allowed, but expected.

Well, that's one way of looking at the world. As a feminist, I do try to look for ways to ameliorate sexism in our culture. Take, just as an example, prostitution. Sexism is basically built into the overall system. That doesn't mean that steps can't be taken to reduce the abject sexism that pervades the industry. There are ways to improve things, but improvement can't happen if one chooses to believe that the world is just the way it is and what point is there in trying to change things.