well, I wouldn't go around blaming restaurants, but I might have some things to say about fast-food culture and McDonald's :) anyway, you're right: some women do enjoy facials, but rarely are the women in porn enjoying them - it which case it does seem to present itself as an act of violence. Once again though, this would be an issue of bad porn, rather than porn itself. I did overgeneralize - there is much good porn out there (I've got a hard-drive full of it). My vitriol against porn was directed (in intention anyway) against the porn which seems to exploit - the women involved are humiliated and abused, and it doesn't seem that they are enjoying it; they do it because they need the money. Porn isn't really the problem, as vaxjedi reminded me - the problem lies in the culture that demands to see cruelty towards women. Of course, it's a different issue in BDSM or similar scenes... I don't believe porn itself is the problem, but it is the manifestation of a problem, and as such it screams out our cultural attitudes. I find what it says to be disturbing, hence my litany against porn. There should be a linguistic distinction between bad porn and good porn, because they exist in different sexual realms. Discourse on pornography becomes difficult when there is no clear language with which to discuss such things. but maybe that's just a cop-out, and maybe there's no problem at all. Perhaps the world is oving along exactly as it needs to, bad porn and all...
the problem lies in the culture that demands to see cruelty towards women.
Well, first of all, this isn't a gendered problem. Our cultures demand to see cruelty, period.
Secondly, I suspect that much of the reason for much porn being bad is not so much that people demand an absence of quality, but rather that badness is cheap and easy.
Thirdly, my view on the humiliation of women in the porn industry is that it is a byproduct, ironically enough, of sexual repression. Black markets always get and produce the dregs. Healthy, self-assured women seldom go into illegal professions unless the rewards are overwhelmingly worth it.
you make a good point - no one can produce good porn these days in such a competitive market, and for that same reason (as well as other reasons), the porn industry does get the dregs. I agree that our culture demands to see cruelty, and that in itself isn't gendered, but there is a gendered component to it. There is an aggressiveness, a hostility even, towards women and their sexuality (I see it in North America anyway). Back in the days of sexual freedom (short as they were, and perhaps illusory besides), good porn was produced because sex was celebrated as something joyous - even healthy, self-assured people produced porn, because the cultural attitude towards sex was more healthy as well (though perhaps that's a matter of opinion). Making porn in those circumstances was more an artistic endeavor than one of generating income.
What you are putting your finger on is the undeniable fact that the
<i>nature</i> of the cruelties usually directed at men and
women are different, and that women are more usually punished for their
sexual expression.
Back in the days of sexual freedom (short as they
were, and perhaps
illusory besides), good porn was produced because sex was celebrated as
something joyous - even healthy, self-assured people produced porn,
because the cultural attitude towards sex was more healthy as well
(though perhaps that's a matter of opinion).
I disagree.
I would argue that good people are going into porn just as frequently
now as before, but that the good porn that they produce is drowned in
oceans of dreck.
Despite the earlier relative prominence of good porn, "Pornstar"
has never been a mainstream-acceptable occupation.
When do you think the mainstream attitudes towards sex were more
healthy than they are now?
It seems to me that the people who do good porn aren't "pornstars" - it's not an occupation, but just an expression of sexuality. Some people like to be watched, some people like to film, others like to creatively express sexuality through well-made pornography (though I admit this is a rarity among pornographers). Yes, the cruelty is there against both men and women, but the cruelty towards women is more sexually-oriented, and hence more relevant to the discussion than the cruelty our culture exacts on the males (which I do not deny). As for mainstream attitudes towards sex, I think it's far more liberal than it has ever been (which is a big step forward), but it seems something is lost as well - perhaps it was never there, and I'm just suffering from a sort of delusiory nostalgia for an imagined past that serves to support my dreams of a well-adjusted society. Perhaps such a time never existed. I don't know if I'd call us healthy though... perhaps it's a healthier time than we have had for many an age, but the sexual cruelty and sex-commodification can't be discluded from the equation.
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branchandroot
Re:
Date: 2004-02-22 07:31 am (UTC)anyway, you're right: some women do enjoy facials, but rarely are the women in porn enjoying them - it which case it does seem to present itself as an act of violence. Once again though, this would be an issue of bad porn, rather than porn itself.
I did overgeneralize - there is much good porn out there (I've got a hard-drive full of it). My vitriol against porn was directed (in intention anyway) against the porn which seems to exploit - the women involved are humiliated and abused, and it doesn't seem that they are enjoying it; they do it because they need the money.
Porn isn't really the problem, as
I don't believe porn itself is the problem, but it is the manifestation of a problem, and as such it screams out our cultural attitudes. I find what it says to be disturbing, hence my litany against porn.
There should be a linguistic distinction between bad porn and good porn, because they exist in different sexual realms. Discourse on pornography becomes difficult when there is no clear language with which to discuss such things.
but maybe that's just a cop-out, and maybe there's no problem at all. Perhaps the world is oving along exactly as it needs to, bad porn and all...
Re:
Date: 2004-02-22 07:40 am (UTC)Well, first of all, this isn't a gendered problem. Our cultures demand to see cruelty, period.
Secondly, I suspect that much of the reason for much porn being bad is not so much that people demand an absence of quality, but rather that badness is cheap and easy.
Thirdly, my view on the humiliation of women in the porn industry is that it is a byproduct, ironically enough, of sexual repression. Black markets always get and produce the dregs. Healthy, self-assured women seldom go into illegal professions unless the rewards are overwhelmingly worth it.
Re:
Date: 2004-02-22 07:55 am (UTC)I agree that our culture demands to see cruelty, and that in itself isn't gendered, but there is a gendered component to it. There is an aggressiveness, a hostility even, towards women and their sexuality (I see it in North America anyway).
Back in the days of sexual freedom (short as they were, and perhaps illusory besides), good porn was produced because sex was celebrated as something joyous - even healthy, self-assured people produced porn, because the cultural attitude towards sex was more healthy as well (though perhaps that's a matter of opinion). Making porn in those circumstances was more an artistic endeavor than one of generating income.
Re:
Date: 2004-02-22 08:52 am (UTC)I disagree.
I would argue that good people are going into porn just as frequently now as before, but that the good porn that they produce is drowned in oceans of dreck.
Despite the earlier relative prominence of good porn, "Pornstar" has never been a mainstream-acceptable occupation.
When do you think the mainstream attitudes towards sex were more healthy than they are now?
Re:
Date: 2004-02-22 11:55 am (UTC)Yes, the cruelty is there against both men and women, but the cruelty towards women is more sexually-oriented, and hence more relevant to the discussion than the cruelty our culture exacts on the males (which I do not deny).
As for mainstream attitudes towards sex, I think it's far more liberal than it has ever been (which is a big step forward), but it seems something is lost as well - perhaps it was never there, and I'm just suffering from a sort of delusiory nostalgia for an imagined past that serves to support my dreams of a well-adjusted society. Perhaps such a time never existed.
I don't know if I'd call us healthy though...
perhaps it's a healthier time than we have had for many an age, but the sexual cruelty and sex-commodification can't be discluded from the equation.