(no subject)

[novapsyche]

I know it's silly of me to continue to watch the thread over at MSNBC over the Imus controversy. It's degenerated even from where it was two days ago. I think I read it because like a train wreck it is so grotesque you can't look away.

There are people who chastise Black people for being "thin-skinned" and overly sensitive. "It's just a word! Get over it!" Or, "I haven't seen you chained and picking cotton lately." As greeneyedkzin said over in ginmar's journal, "Once again, we have a demonstration of how 'cancha take a joke' is asking less-privileged people to be complicit in their own denigration."

Then you have people who switch roles and claim victim status. Someone actually said, "It has become a social stigma to be a white person." Someone else stated that while Blacks are allowed to call each other the N-word, if a White person says something racial then "they" (Blacks) want to kill them. Kill them.

Remember, this controversy started out by a celebrity, who happens to be a Caucasian male, saying denigrating things about basketball players, who happen to be black and female. But somehow, the conversation (if you want to call it that) has drifted into Blacks wanting to kill Whites.

Then you have people who equate racism with a fad, like bellbottoms. "People of my generation have gotten over racism." "It's so 1990s."

I really fear for the future of my country.

Comments

[novapsyche.livejournal.com]

http://novapsyche.livejournal.com/1303590.html#cutid1

Do you feel or have you ever felt discriminated against?

simianpower -- No

Maybe you answered "no" because you hadn't felt discriminated against due to race, gender, sexual orientation, education, or socioeconomic status. Other than ageism, weight, or handicap (which I managed to leave out of the poll), I don't know what other social axis could have been bent against you. Perhaps you'll enlighten us.

"The verbal abuse was a little over the top, but as for the rest I can't see what else he could've done." Note there was no "might have been". If you're going to quote me, at least don't MISquote me.

I apologize for misquoting you. However, to me, the difference is six of one, half-dozen of the other. "A little" approximates "might have been," especially in context. And if the flagrant use of "nigger" counts only as "a little over the top" for you, I can see why you don't see the Imus controversy as important.

My reaction to the topic of racism/sexism is that I'm against anything that treats one person differently than another, whether that be a law (women having the advantage in child-custody cases in many states), a handout (affirmative action), a tradition (I can say X but you can't), a clique, or something else. (emphasis mine)

How many times have we gotten into discussions about feminism and your response has been, "That's just the way things are"? What else is that but tradition, or the status quo?

And please don't make me into the strawman of allowing Black people to use the word nigger and others not. I don't like the word at all. When I was growing up, I could have used that word in its current Black slang manner. But I didn't, and I don't. It comes out of my mouth when I'm speaking in an academic manner, or when I speak from personal experience (like the one referenced above).

Comedians who use their talents to examine racism and expose it for the hairy creature it is? Yes, I find them funny. I suppose I shouldn't blame anyone else for the fact that I listened to Richard Pryor as a child, then Eddie Murphy. But yes, I respect Dave Chappelle's sketches (particularly the black white supremicist and the Niggar family) that try to explode racism from the inside out. Like sarahmichigan said, that's what Lenny Bruce tried to do, too. There is a big difference between examining race and participating in racism.

And, the other strawman comment you have in this thread: I don't listen to hardcore rap/hiphop with liberal uses of "nigger" or "bitches" or "hos." In fact, it was when that language started showing up more and more in rap that I turned away from that form of music. I like old school rap, like stuff from 1985. You won't hear language like that during that era. (At the same time, I don't agree with this movement to ban the word "nigger," because banning speech is impossible.) I don't support the use of such language in rap music. I vote my conscience with my pocketbook, and I can only hope others do the same.

But none of that has anything to do, really, with what Don Imus said. At best, they are tangentially related. What is at issue is racist speech going out over radio waves and television. Imus may have been trying to make a joke, but it's obvious he's not a comedian, nor is his show marketed as comedy. He wasn't trying to examine race; he was an active participant in racism. He should no longer have a job.

[simianpower.livejournal.com]

I apologize for misquoting you. However, to me, the difference is six of one, half-dozen of the other. "A little" approximates "might have been," especially in context. And if the flagrant use of "nigger" counts only as "a little over the top" for you, I can see why you don't see the Imus controversy as important.

It is "a little" over the top. I'm sorry, but it's just a word. It has as much power over you as you let it. If you, personally, have been brought up to think it's the worst possible insult, that it has centuries of hatred behind it, that nothing could possibly be worse, then to you that's what it is. But that's YOU assigning weight to it. To me it's just a word. If he'd called you a fucking bitch I'd have also said it's "a little" over the top. It doesn't sound like he went into a ten-minute cursing diatribe.

I was taught when I was growing up that saying "shut up" was almost unforgivable, that saying "crap" was absolutely horrid... but they're not; they're just words. When I grew up I discovered that. If someone tells me to shut up, or for that matter calls me a fucking asshole or goddamned cattle-worshipping hinduspawn, I'll be offended. But it probably won't stay with me past a couple of hours later. The power of the word nigger is being kept alive solely by black culture, and to no purpose. It's rude, it's insulting, but it's not something worth agonizing about for months. It doesn't make you suddenly into a slave. It doesn't put you into a position as a lesser person except insomuch as you let it. I keep hearing from black people that the word nigger is so terrible, that it's far worse than any other racial epithet, but it's not. There are epithets for every single race, including white, and they're all equivalent. You can say, "You don't know, you aren't black, you haven't had our experience." Well, the experience that made nigger such a terrible word was slavery, and NOBODY LIVING has had that experience.

There is a big difference between examining race and participating in racism.

Sometimes. Sometimes the two come very close. I finally heard Imus's original comments on The Daily Show tonight, and it doesn't sound like he was trying to be funny. It sounds like he was trying to get a reaction. He's a shock-jock, and that's what he does. It's not like his audience is unaware of what he does. Does that make it OK? Probably not, but it does mean that picking his comments as an example of inflammatory speech is a little silly. It's like going after Howard Stern for making derogatory comments about someone's boobs; that's just what his show was about and people paid for it.

And please don't make me into the strawman of allowing Black people to use the word nigger and others not. ... I don't listen to hardcore rap/hiphop with liberal uses of "nigger" or "bitches" or "hos." ... What is at issue is racist speech going out over radio waves and television.

Voting with your wallet is a lot different than posting diatribes online about how hateful something is. When black rappers use phrases you don't like, you simply don't listen, but when an old white guy uses them you go ape. You personally, not the general you. I don't imagine you listen to the Don Imus show on a daily basis, so probably didn't hear his comments live, but you make a point to find out about things like that and post about them. You don't listen to gangsta rap songs with similar word usage, or watch the videos, but you know they're out there and DON'T make a point to post about them. That says something to me. It says that while you don't LIKE the language even used by black people, you accept its existence and dissemination. You're not a strawman for this double standard, you're an exemplar of it. You make a much bigger deal out of something said by one racial group than the same thing said by another. That IS racist. To quote a movie, "You girls have GOT to stop calling one another bitches and whores. It just makes it easier for guys to do it." The same thing applies here. You want to stop hate-speech? Stop it for everyone. Stop picking and choosing those you speak out against by their race.

[sarahmichigan.livejournal.com]

The n-word ONLY has power because black people are thin-skinned about it? Come ON! Do you really believe that?

You're coming off as so ignorant, I'm embarrassed to be your friend right now.

Way to blame the victim! Go you!

[sarahmichigan.livejournal.com]

I think you're being silly. novapsyche has pointed out other issues where she has been upset by bigotry perpetuated by other ethnic groups. She slammed a black guy who made bigoted comments about gay people, for instance. I don't think she's picking-and-choosing in a racist way; you can't hold up every example of racism/prejudice on both sides and critique them every day in your blog, or you'd go nuts.

Sometimes, a particular incident just really touchs a hot spot for you. Perhaps the fact that novapsyche was, herself, recently the target of a racial slur made her especially sensitive to Imus racial slur (not to mention how misogynist the comment was).

I think your reaction to her feelings about being the victim of race-bashing by someone in a position of power over her is really lacking in compassion, and your unwillingness or inability to empathize with people of other races and their reaction to racial slurs is astounding to me.

Maybe YOU are lining up by race on this issue, but I can assure you that many white folks are equally disgusted by racial slurs.

Really, the one point I sort of agree with you about is that getting outraged about this sort of thing can back-fire because it just gives Imus and his ilk more publicity. I think novapsyche was reacting more to the ignorant comments in response than to the initial incident, but I can't speak for her.

I'm sorry you felt I was making an ad-hominem attack in my other comment, so I'm trying to respond to the issue rather than to my (obviously strong) feelings about how you've responded to the issue.

[simianpower.livejournal.com]

Sometimes, a particular incident just really touchs a hot spot for you.

That's a valid point. And Imus IS a jackass, so it's not like he doesn't have it coming. And I'm not saying that every single example of objectionable speech can be fought against by any one person. You're right, they'd go crazy! But when you have, say, 1000 instances in hip-hop songs every few months (which are broadcast on TV and radio) and a handful of instances by bigoted public figures, I have to say that the people to fight against are the ones with the greatest prevalence. I'm NOT saying Imus gets a pass because he's one guy in a hundred; I'm saying that however much effort you have to fight this, give him his one percent and the other 99 guys the rest. Not because they're black or white, but because of the sheer amount!

[sarahmichigan.livejournal.com]

Further "nigger" will never be "just a word" until we've adequately addressed race relations in this country.

Racial epithets are NOT equivalent, no matter what you say, because they have denotations and social context.

If a jailer said to a prisoner, "When you sleep, I'm going to come in there and slit your throat," those words have MUCH more power than if the prisoner said to the jailer, "When I get out of here, I'm going to catch you in your sleep and slit your throat."

The reason is that the jailer has the power, and the prisoner's threat is impotent.

With the history of racial inequality in this country, "nigger" has much more potency than any other racial slur ("Wetback" is a pretty close second considering all the racial animosity and issues with illegal immigration) because it has the baggage of the years of not just slavery, but also Jim Crow, segregation, and discrimination that continues today.

I've known people in the last few years that were denied jobs or were not shown appropriate housing because of racial discrimination (in one case, I knew this because my boss straight-out said he didn't think he'd ever hire a black sales agent), so this is not some issue that happened hundreds of years ago. This is a problem TODAY.

[novapsyche.livejournal.com]

As far as me going on a crusade against "nigger" being used in the Black community: I actually don't consider myself an active participant in the Black community. I don't self-identify as Black unless forced to (e.g., when filling out official forms). There are other activists who are deeply involved in the community who are trying to change things. I applaud their efforts (though, again, I think the current movement to ban the use of racial language is misguided and doomed to fail).

I also hesitate to interfere with the creation and production of art. Music--even rap--is art, and I support the right of artists to create and reflect what they view as reality. (Imus is not an artist, by any means.)

Like I've said before, Imus has a right to speak whatever is in his heart. He just doesn't have a right to say it over the air. Public airwaves are protected, regulated space. To permit his speech to go unpunished (and a two-week suspension is a slap on the wrist as far as punishment goes) is tacit permission for any other person in radio or TV to do the same.

It's wrong to use racial epithets as insults, across the board. I've never wavered in this stance. I am not being hypocritical, and I take offense of you accusing me of being so.

[novapsyche.livejournal.com]

I don't self-identify as Black unless forced to

That is, I generally don't. My LJ profile lists my race, mainly as a way to let potential readers have a sense of why I do post things about race and why I might have the stance that I do.

[simianpower.livejournal.com]

I understood what you meant.

[simianpower.livejournal.com]

As far as me going on a crusade...

I addressed this above. I don't see that as a black or white issue, but simply an issue of numbers of instances. And I agree that banning language will fail if it's done by legislation. But if it's done at a grass-roots level by record companies, that might make a huge difference. If young black men (and women, but I think this is mostly men) don't hear about bitches and hos and niggers in every song they listen to, maybe they will stop using that language themselves and thus, over time, other people may also stop using it. That's my hope, anyway. And no, I'm not saying it's all the fault of the media, just like violence isn't the fault of video games, but the prevalence of that kind of language in rap/hip-hop is frankly scary, and what it does to the music video industry is worse. In particular the after-hours videos (I forget the correct term) which are basically sanctioned misogyny festivals.

The problem is it's very hard to unbottle the genie, and that language and attitude HAS crept into the music and art, so where does that leave us? Black women in particular are being hurt by this, other women and black men to a lesser extent, and white men practically not at all. And it's the white men running the record companies. So how can this be fought? You personally fight it by voting with your wallet, but it's going to take a lot MORE people doing that, and letting the record companies know why, to get them to change. I've never had much of a belief in boycotts alone, but as part of a concerted, SUSTAINED effort it might hit them where it hurts. There are crusaders out there doing that, as you say, but more is better. You have not only an interest in the subject, but a vested interest in making this better. I guess we just disagree about the methods. I see your posts attacking white racists (and male sexists and straight gay-bashers for that matter), but nothing about the most prevalent source of public hate-speech, so it does look like you're picking and choosing your targets. As S said above, this one may have just struck a chord, so I apologize for calling your tactics racist.

Public airwaves are protected, regulated space.

That also have caustic lyrics spouted on many stations/channels. Just because a syllable or two are bleeped out doesn't mean people don't realize what's being said.