(no subject)

[novapsyche]

For those in the United States:

Can you imagine a classless system?

If so, what would it look like?

Comments

[guppiecat]

Much like Communism and Socialism, I think that a classless system is a good ideal, but incompatible with human nature. Communes only work with the right mix of the right people. Too little ambition and people don't survive. Too much, and they don't get along.

I think that in order for a classless system to work, everyone in it must have the same concept as to what "success" is, and have it not involve measurement against others. Additionally, I think that the society would have to be constructed such that the concept of "success" does not morph over time.

I don't think that either are possible. Maybe after another 10,000 years of evolution, but given our environmental record, I don't know if we'll get there either.

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

In a word, Communism.

The U.S. class system is almost entirely economic - those with inherited wealth make up that elite. We would need an unthinkable redistribution of wealth to level the playing field.

[pgdudda.livejournal.com]

Not quite entirely economic - there are concurrent elements of racism, sexism, and [vamp till ready]. It's difficult to untangle which are causes and which are supporting elements, because each element feeds into and is supported by all the others.

There are non-communist systems that have something close to a "classless" society. The Old Order Amish, and possibly some Mennonite groups, are examples of such. The trade-off is that they specifically devalue individualism in the sense that it's understood by most folks in the U.S. (Though the Amish value self-sufficiency, but that's not the same thing as individualism.) Probably the most notable difference is that they value communalism - that is, the idea that person and community are inextricable from one another - rather than independence. (Note that his use of the term "communalism" is quite different from how most folks understand it; communalism is merely one aspect of communism, but there are other details that differentiate itself from other types of community-centered living.)

[simianpower.livejournal.com]

Nothing would ever get done. Nobody wants to be a sewer worker or coal miner. They'd all want to be working in "cleaner" jobs like doctor or engineer, and since there's nothing to stop them they would. Nobody to say "You can't do that." Even if inherited or financial authority were to go away entirely, you'd still be left with a meritocracy. Some people aren't mentally or physically capable of doing certain jobs, and thus are relegated to those jobs they can do, and thus you get a class system of sorts even without wanting one.

People are NOT by nature all equal, no matter who'd like it to be so. Until the last few years everyone I met was stronger than me, and thus in a savage society I'd be at the bottom of the social list. But I'm smarter than most people, so in this industrial society I'm working my way to the top. Every society has its inherent meritocracy even without taking into account race, money, or sex. This is why true communism will never work. There HAS to be someone at the top making decisions, or else you don't even have a society, just a loose anarchy that'll dissolve as soon as someone does something that someone else doesn't like.

[novapsyche.livejournal.com]

Are rank and class the same thing?

[blackwinterbyrd.livejournal.com]

I think it would look like respect.

People would be treated better regardless of occupation.

People would be paid a living wage. People would be educated to a certain minimum level; but that still would not alleviate the class of "ignorant" alltogether. If we managed to chuck the idea of unexamined faith as a virtue, we might be able to have a society where thought is encouraged, regardless of formal education level.
Legalize drugs, decriminalize prostitution and you would still have theives as a criminal underclass.
oh, don't let me forget universal health care.

Allright, It wouldn't be entirely classless, but it would be more subtle and respect would alleviate a lot of cultural insulation percieved as class.

[pgdudda.livejournal.com]

Just as a side point: people who have to deal with discrimination seem to express the opinion that overt discrimination is easier to deal with than covert discrimination. Everyone agrees the overt stuff is there, regardless of whether they think it's acceptable or not. Not everyone can be made to agree that the covert forms exist, or if they are acknowledged, may not agree whether they are even acts of discriminiation.

It's easier to deal with the elephant everyone agrees is there than the one whose existence people refuse to acknowledge.

[blackwinterbyrd.livejournal.com]

is this directed at my unexamined opinion?
Do you think I am talking about overt or covert discrimination when I say that in my imaginary classless society people would respect service professionals?

[pgdudda.livejournal.com]

It was more a tangent spawned by the use of the of the phrase "more subtle" rather than a direct comment on anything you wrote. Sorry for the confusion.

[sarahsmiles.livejournal.com]

impossible. equality is impossible, only equity is an option, imho. How could we all be equal, unless you all shrink to 5' 1"?

[gwendally.livejournal.com]

Thursday was Social Security Day at the bank. The dregs of humanity come crawling out to stand in line to get cash (in one dollar bills) from their automatically deposited social security disability checks. The lobby is usually filled with bankers in suits and lawyers off to closings and business owners making the day's deposits. But on Social Security Day it is filled with obese people with low IQs and disturbing body odors and fashion sense. The bank regulars know to avoid the bank that day.

One of my clients is a nurse on a pediatric floor of a nursing home. It is filled with brain damaged kids from Shaken Baby syndrome or car accidents. Family don't visit.

Anyone who really KNOWS what is out there cannot believe in a classless society.

[pigfish.livejournal.com]

Totally off topic - is it by default that these monies come in $1 bills, or is that just how most of these recipients prefer it?

[rmeidaking.livejournal.com]

It's really hard to enforce a class-less group. I've watched groups of three-year-olds spontaneously form cliques and social hierarchies; it's something that's instinctive. Teachers work *all the time* to try to keep the kids playing nicely together, but it's a hard thing to do. As soon as the teachers make any separation at all, *presto*, Group A starts to exclude Group B - and often, Group B is just as exclusive of Group A. And this is with *toddlers*, with teachers actively pressuring them to *not* do this.

When the larger society - say, their place of worship - says that "WE are better than THEM", it's pretty much all over. Little bitty kids refuse to talk to other little bitty kids because the Sunday School teacher told them they should only talk to Baptists, or Catholics (or Jews or Muslims or Buddhists or People Like Us), and they're all cool with that. WE are better than THEM. WE don't associate with THEM.

On the economic front, competition is the same way. *I* want to prove that I'm better than *YOU*. So I work to get better grades, a better job, a better house, car, clothing, however I define my social 'Betterness'. This expands into a situation where people of similar social achievement band together (see above note on toddlers and cliques) and trade notes, and Group A actually does achieve a whole lot more than Group B.

Because of the over-arching "WE are better than THEM" that they learned, Group A really doesn't have much feeling or concern for Group B.

Because of these inherent human characteristics, a classless society is impossible. The best we can hope for is a society that recognizes that the overall aim of the society is to raise the floor for all of its members and a government that will treat everyone the same regardless of their social standing.

[khiron1416.livejournal.com]

I don't think the U.S. can be de-classed in less than one generation, w/o altering society so much as to make the de-classing no longer the primary occurence.