(no subject)

[novapsyche]

The Male Privilege Checklist -- I hadn't seen this before.

Comments

[xterminal.livejournal.com]

Am I right to be reading "imitation" as "parody" in the subtitle?

[novapsyche.livejournal.com]

No, I don't think so. More like a homage.

[xterminal.livejournal.com]

In that case, there way too much wrong with the list for a comment; it will require an entire post, which I'm not sure I'm up to right now. Hmm, which makes me think I might as well just make it into an impossible task-- combine both into a white male privilege list and start poking holes...

[simianpower.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's what I got, too. Some of those so-called "privileges" are laughable, others simple biology, and other a matter of perception. I could make a similar list of the "privileges" of women that's equally biased, but what's the point?

[pgdudda.livejournal.com]

Hooo, boy... do I have a few nits to pick:

#5: "The odds of my encountering sexual harassment on the job are so low as to be negligible. "

I would strongly contest this. It's easily demonstrable that (a) men don't report sexual harassment when it happens, at much higher rates of non-reporting than for women, and (b) men are socialized to think something's wrong with them if they don't like female attention.

#17: "As a child, I could choose from an almost infinite variety of children's media featuring positive, active, non-stereotyped heroes of my own sex. I never had to look for it; male heroes were the default. "

Non-stereotyped? Excuse, but what sort of crack have you been smoking? Let's start listing: GI Joe, Wrestler dolls, Rambo/Terminator/Die Hard. There is a distinct lack of nuturing-male stereotypes in most mainstream media.

#25: "There are value-neutral clothing choices available to me; it is possible for me to choose clothing that doesn't send any particular message to the world. "

I disagree; all clothing communicates a social message. Mousy brown suit? Conservative Republican. Clean white shirt and jeans? Conservative jock. Even 'neutral' messages have value judgments associated with them.

#42: "If I am heterosexual, it's incredibly unlikely that I'll ever be beaten up by a spouse or lover. "

But chances are somewhat better that you will suffer extensive verbal abuse, the socially-approved weapon of choice for women, and that you will be ridiculed for "allowing" it to happen. There are no shelters for men in the USA, very few programs for male victims, and little social acknowledgment that verbal abuse is abuse at all.

[dionysus1999.livejournal.com]

I take issue with #30, men who report some kinds of male on male violence will be considered less than a man, and even the law will laugh at him.

Its a stereotype of the white male. On the whole, though, I think these are relatively accurate. The caveat being that no one man will fit half of them.

[vaxjedi]

There are always howls of protest from someone when they are under scrutiny, deserved or not. A similar list of priviledges that women have would get a similar set of howls, once again, deserved or not

[brendand.livejournal.com]

#1. Explain that to me... why can't I find a job?

#8. Doesn't mean I didn't learn it.

#40. WHAT?!

#41. Since when!?

#42. More reason this should be called something other than simply "the male privilege checklist."

#43. I'm not at all unaware of what advantages I have. But I most certainly contest that everything on that list is an "advantage" to me.

[sarahmichigan.livejournal.com]

I think most of the stuff about jobs has to be qualified with "depending on the field."

There's definitely anti-male bias in certain professions, as you saw with your one job that didn't want to hire male attendants.

[vaxjedi]

Well, yes. Men do frequently ignore the harsh realities of women's lives. And I agree, men do have the upper hand in most levels of society.

However, that does not mean that there are not priviledges that women have that men do not, whether they are priviledges on the same order of magnitude or not.

Nor does it mean that there will be less howling, such as someone stating that "It is all part of denial that men have the upper hand in almost every level of society" when pointing out that everyone 'howls' when they are being scrutinized, whether that scrutiny is deserved or not.

[vaxjedi]

Just because something is simple biology doesn't mean it isn't an unequal distribution of power, whether people did it or nature did.

[vaxjedi]

#1. I think the point is that no one is looking at you and saying 'Don't hire the male!' Of course, like sarahmichigan points out, that does happen in some occupations (I remember seeing a very 'spirited' discussion on why men can't be midwives, for example). But I expect that's the exception, not the rule.

#8. The difference once again, is systemic. You learned it, not specifically because you are male and that simply being male makes you a likelier target.

#42. I agree that a lot of these apply a lot more to straight men then just men. But straight men ARE the majority.

[pgdudda.livejournal.com]

As someone who has been discriminated against for a disability, I'd quite frankly rather not be discriminated against at all. Period.

[simianpower.livejournal.com]

So? People make lists like this because they want something done about the "unequal distribution of power", and putting things on such lists that nobody can, or even should, do anything about just taints the validity of the list. So men are generally stronger and/or aggressive than women, so what? It's a fact of life. If you can't handle it, get off the boat, 'cause there's no alternative.

[vaxjedi]

men are socialized to think something's wrong with them if they don't like female attention.

However I think that men are socialized to think that female attention is desirable and are less likely to see it as harrassment.

[simianpower.livejournal.com]

"deserved or not" basically makes it sound like you don't even care if these lists are valid or not, so long as you have something to complain about. If there are so-called "deserved" howls of complaint, then take those freakin' items off of the list! Adding tons of fluff for its own sake, just so you have a long list rather than one three items long, is NOT A VALID DEBATE TECHNIQUE.

[vaxjedi]

Just because nothing can be done about the biology of the matter doesn't mean it doesn't need to be examined and/or pointed out.

[vaxjedi]

My point is that the howls of protest do not necessarily indicate the validity of the points being howled about. Simply that being poked at is going to elicit howls.

[simianpower.livejournal.com]

And many of the items on that list wouldn't be considered "advantages" by men, either.

For example, "If I am never promoted, it's not because of my sex"; hell, it'd be great if we COULD blame sexism for lack of promotion, because then we could a) sue, b) console ourselves that it wasn't our fault, and c) sue.

Another example: "If I do the same task as a woman, and if the measurement is at all subjective, chances are people will think I did a better job." Yeah, but if the woman is the judge (i.e. a "subjective" bias according to this flawed study), she'll likely feel this way and be more sympathetic toward the other woman... which not only means she'll give the woman the edge but that the man will be denigrated for not doing as well as the woman AND the woman will be congratulated as if she's an olympic winner. People will say, "Oh, she must have worked MUCH harder than him!" even if she did the exact same job.

And how about a two-in-one: "If I'm careless with my financial affairs it won't be attributed to my sex." and "If I'm careless with my driving it won't be attributed to my sex" No, for a man it's attributed to him being a moron. Women can and do use their gender as an excuse and escape clause in these situations, which men can't. Women who get pulled over by police are FAR less likely to get a ticket for minor infractions than men; they flash a smile and a hint of cleavage and the cop lets them go. Most women I know have told a story like that at one time or another, so if anything I'd call that an advantage for women than a "privilege" for men! As for the financials, most of the financial paper-pushers I know are women. Secretary of State officials, contract managers, etc. All women.

So yeah, the "harsh realities" of women's lives are largely a matter of perception. Anyone can feel downtrodden if they try hard enough, but that doesn't necessarily make it true.

[brendand.livejournal.com]

Well, I would argue the only appropriate time to overgeneralize is when talking about idiotic republicans. But that may just be me. ;)

[simianpower.livejournal.com]

Ahh. That makes a little more sense. If I get you right, you're saying that the defensive reaction isn't necessarily coupled with the validity of the point being defended against. To an extent I agree, but it's also a lot harder to defend against a valid argument than it is against a spurious one. A point that's clear and unequivocal will take a lot more work to invalidate than one that's obvious to everyone as simple padding.

[simianpower.livejournal.com]

OK, but at least that kind of thing can be pointed out and examined in great detail in an article in Scientific American, NOT in a "look how badly we're treated" list like that one. It adds nothing to that kind of list except a feeling of pouting about the unfairness of life. So it's "unfair" that men are generally taller and stronger... wah! It's equally unfair that women are generally prettier and live longer, but there's nothing that men can do about that, so putting it on a list of the unfair advantage women have is equally invalid.

[simianpower.livejournal.com]

Nor is it my problem that your "reality" is bears only a passing resemblance to the world. See, if you want to get unproductively snippy I can do that, too, but what's the point?

[simianpower.livejournal.com]

Yeah. The difference is that if they WERE jobs which pay more than average, you wouldn't be complaining about the anti-male discrimination, you'd be supporting it. Women like you don't want equality at all, you want superiority in all things and will complain until you get it.

[pgdudda.livejournal.com]

I think the way I said it misplaced the emphasis -- it isn't the harassed male, but his counterparts who will pooh-pooh the idea that he is being sexually harassed.