Well, if the workers control the means of production? heee hee heee
I've never read raw Marx. But ignorance never stops me. The question would be that wouldn't it be mandatory? Wouldn't it be a right to benefit from the fruits of one's own labour? Prostitution is anti-capitalist. Pimping would be illegal, but getting $$$ for your work, or a reasonable materialistic commody exchange in a cashless society. It would be probably unstigmatized though.
On the contrary, prostitution goes right to the heart of capitalism. What could be more capitalist than to sell one's labor? The fact that it's sexual labor really shouldn't matter. It's one of the reasons I'm disgusted with the hypocrasy of the American capitalist system.
I mean, really. Our media sells sex all the time. But a woman can't really sell sex. That just doesn't make any sense.
I don't support the pimp system (who does, except pimps?), but I am very appreciative of the legal brothels in Nevada and would like to see that system implemented if not decriminalization altogether.
I can't agree more, in general, except for the bits I don't understand and will have to mull over.
To me if I can't sell sex, then how can I sell any art performance? Or my assistance as a nanny? Or midwife?
As for Nevada... I'm pro legalized prostitution, but I don't know if I'm pro-legalized brothals like Nevada. They seem very dehumanizing... and I think it is more legalized pimping. I could be wrong, but that's my feeling on it.
I'd love you to clarify why selling one's labor is problematic. I'm missing something. Unless selling my skills as a midwife is bad too...
[Never post replies using someone else's computer, if you don't want to get into trouble for saying things on their behalf :)]
To me if I can't sell sex, then how can I sell any art performance? Or my assistance as a nanny? Or midwife?
As far as COYOTE (Call Off Your Old Tired Ethics, one of the major organizations in the US that promotes unionized prostitution) is concerned, there is no difference between an hour's worth of sold sex and an hour's worth of typing or babysitting. It's all labor and skill. In a society that was truly driven by capitalism (not that I'm for this), the type of labor wouldn't matter--the exchange itself is what is important.
As for Nevada... I'm pro legalized prostitution, but I don't know if I'm pro-legalized brothals like Nevada. They seem very dehumanizing... and I think it is more legalized pimping. I could be wrong, but that's my feeling on it.
Well, as an former sex worker of one of those brothels, I can tell you some first-hand information. The workers are considered independent contractors and sign a contract with the house. The house gets 50% of whatever the women make; they also charge room and board on a per diem basis. This is rather steep, especially considering that the workers are responsible for just about any costs that the job entails (including all doctor's visits, clothing, registration with the county, etc.). On top of this, the women's wages are untaxed, so they have to set aside their own money for the next year's federal taxes. Of course, there is no health insurance or pension plan.
On the other hand, the house provides a secure place to work. They have arrangements with doctors who come to the houses and inspect the ladies on the premises. Because the brothels are supported by the state, they of course have the law on their side, so if any customer gets out of line, there's no problem calling up the police for assistance. And the mandatory use of condoms is for the workers' protection, and the fact that the house enforces this rule takes the pressure off of the individual worker to insist on this safety precaution.
I'd love you to clarify why selling one's labor is problematic. I'm missing something. Unless selling my skills as a midwife is bad too...
Well, I haven't read much Marx, either. But from what I understand, selling one's labor alienates oneself from one's productive fruits. The laborer begins to see himself as a means to an end (cash) instead of a whole person, an end in itself.
I don't claim to believe in communism as it was thought up by Marx or implemented by various rulers in the 20th century. But I do have great faith in grassroots communistic societies (the type of communities the early Christians were supposed to have created, for example).
Thanks for your info. It freaks me out when people have opinions without any information... but we have to. I've knowns some folks working in the sex industry, and have a few close friends who have in the past, but I've had other options. So I've not felt uncomfortable living in and around the industry, but I've not felt I could have any opinion or anything on the issue. If a woman (or a guy I guess) feels comfortable in what they're doing, they have my respect.
Anyway, thanks for clarifying stuff a la COYOTE. I seemed to be on the right page. I'd prefer safety without an institution, like the brothel, but whatever gives safety.
As far as I know Marx, if I sell my labor it is ok. If I work to dig up mushrooms and sell them, or if I get paid for delivering a bottle of wine, or selling something more intimate... as long as I'm the direct recipient of benefit for my actions... is it ok by Karl. It is if I sell them to an intermediary who repackages and resells them that I'm in trouble. If this wasn't ok, there would be no exchange of products, and we would all be forced to be completely self sufficient.
I live in a very communal household... but what works is our individual lacks of a meaningful past and a sense the insane possibility of the future. Not that it is rosy, but that it has unknown options. I wonder what tomorrow will give me, good or bad, and I wonder if that's what those communities (early Christian) had to pull them onward.
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(no subject)
Date: 2003-11-08 03:42 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2003-11-08 05:21 am (UTC)I've never read raw Marx. But ignorance never stops me. The question would be that wouldn't it be mandatory? Wouldn't it be a right to benefit from the fruits of one's own labour? Prostitution is anti-capitalist. Pimping would be illegal, but getting $$$ for your work, or a reasonable materialistic commody exchange in a cashless society. It would be probably unstigmatized though.
(no subject)
Date: 2003-11-08 10:20 am (UTC)I mean, really. Our media sells sex all the time. But a woman can't really sell sex. That just doesn't make any sense.
I don't support the pimp system (who does, except pimps?), but I am very appreciative of the legal brothels in Nevada and would like to see that system implemented if not decriminalization altogether.
(no subject)
Date: 2003-11-08 11:55 am (UTC)To me if I can't sell sex, then how can I sell any art performance? Or my assistance as a nanny? Or midwife?
As for Nevada... I'm pro legalized prostitution, but I don't know if I'm pro-legalized brothals like Nevada. They seem very dehumanizing... and I think it is more legalized pimping. I could be wrong, but that's my feeling on it.
I'd love you to clarify why selling one's labor is problematic. I'm missing something. Unless selling my skills as a midwife is bad too...
[Never post replies using someone else's computer, if you don't want to get into trouble for saying things on their behalf :)]
(no subject)
Date: 2003-11-08 12:32 pm (UTC)As far as COYOTE (Call Off Your Old Tired Ethics, one of the major organizations in the US that promotes unionized prostitution) is concerned, there is no difference between an hour's worth of sold sex and an hour's worth of typing or babysitting. It's all labor and skill. In a society that was truly driven by capitalism (not that I'm for this), the type of labor wouldn't matter--the exchange itself is what is important.
As for Nevada... I'm pro legalized prostitution, but I don't know if I'm pro-legalized brothals like Nevada. They seem very dehumanizing... and I think it is more legalized pimping. I could be wrong, but that's my feeling on it.
Well, as an former sex worker of one of those brothels, I can tell you some first-hand information. The workers are considered independent contractors and sign a contract with the house. The house gets 50% of whatever the women make; they also charge room and board on a per diem basis. This is rather steep, especially considering that the workers are responsible for just about any costs that the job entails (including all doctor's visits, clothing, registration with the county, etc.). On top of this, the women's wages are untaxed, so they have to set aside their own money for the next year's federal taxes. Of course, there is no health insurance or pension plan.
On the other hand, the house provides a secure place to work. They have arrangements with doctors who come to the houses and inspect the ladies on the premises. Because the brothels are supported by the state, they of course have the law on their side, so if any customer gets out of line, there's no problem calling up the police for assistance. And the mandatory use of condoms is for the workers' protection, and the fact that the house enforces this rule takes the pressure off of the individual worker to insist on this safety precaution.
I'd love you to clarify why selling one's labor is problematic. I'm missing something. Unless selling my skills as a midwife is bad too...
Well, I haven't read much Marx, either. But from what I understand, selling one's labor alienates oneself from one's productive fruits. The laborer begins to see himself as a means to an end (cash) instead of a whole person, an end in itself.
I don't claim to believe in communism as it was thought up by Marx or implemented by various rulers in the 20th century. But I do have great faith in grassroots communistic societies (the type of communities the early Christians were supposed to have created, for example).
(no subject)
Date: 2003-11-09 02:32 pm (UTC)Anyway, thanks for clarifying stuff a la COYOTE. I seemed to be on the right page. I'd prefer safety without an institution, like the brothel, but whatever gives safety.
As far as I know Marx, if I sell my labor it is ok. If I work to dig up mushrooms and sell them, or if I get paid for delivering a bottle of wine, or selling something more intimate... as long as I'm the direct recipient of benefit for my actions... is it ok by Karl. It is if I sell them to an intermediary who repackages and resells them that I'm in trouble. If this wasn't ok, there would be no exchange of products, and we would all be forced to be completely self sufficient.
I live in a very communal household... but what works is our individual lacks of a meaningful past and a sense the insane possibility of the future. Not that it is rosy, but that it has unknown options. I wonder what tomorrow will give me, good or bad, and I wonder if that's what those communities (early Christian) had to pull them onward.
Thanks. Interesting stuff. I'm learning.